Sometimes, you feel stuck. You see all the possibilities that lay ahead in your ministry, yet you feel held back by your position on the organizational chart. You start to feel stagnant, unimportant, and disgruntled.

But don’t lose heart: You can cultivate influence without authority and you can use your passion to gain influence with those you work with. In today’s episode of the Think Orange Podcast, we’re joined by Frank Bealer and Clay Scroggins who talk about the concept of leading up and how you can be a better leader right where you are.

Where To Listen:  iTunes  |  Google Play  |  Stitcher  |  SoundCloud

Topic Timeline

Dave introduces today’s guests, Frank Bealer, executive director of leadership development at Orange, CEO of the Phase Family Centers, and former family pastor at Elevation Church in Charlotte, NC, and Clay Scroggins, lead pastor at North Point Community Church and author of How To Lead When You’re Not In Charge (1:22)

Frank gives five practical ways to lead up in a more powerful way (8:09)

One of the best ways you can ensure you don’t let down the next generation is improve the way you lead up (16:58)

Dave introduces Clay Scroggins (17:24)

Clay says the key to doing well in the role you’re in is to buy in like it’s the last job you’ll ever have, but be aware that it’s not (22:47)

How important is being a good follower to leading up? (25:24)

Why being a student of our bosses is important (26:40)

How can you be an effective follower with vision? (28:55)

Is there a difference between godly ambition and selfish ambition? (37:48)

Clay explains the motivation behind writing his book (42:08)

From a leader’s perspective, how does he/she want to see their team leading up? (44:50)

Clay gives advice to a person who doesn’t feel like they have the opportunity or authority to express themselves to their leaders (49:06)

Is being a leader the same as being in charge? (53:24)

Clay and Dave talk about how leading up happens in your family (57:49)

Dave and Kevin give closing remarks (1:04:17)

People, Places & Helpful Resources

Featured Guests

Greg Bradford


Clay is the author of the new book: How To Lead When Your Not In Charge. In addition to being an author, Clay is lead pastor of North Point Community Church (NPCC) in Alpharetta, GA. He lives in Forsyth County, Georgia, with his wife, Jenny, and their four lively children, Lucy, Jake, Sally, and Cooper.

Duffy Robbins


Frank Bealer is executive director of Leadership Development at The reThink Group and the CEO of Phase Family Centers. Frank is the author of The Myth of Balance: Thriving in the Tension of Ministry, Work, and Life. Before joining Orange, he was family pastor at Elevation Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. He is driven to helping leaders develop to their full potential. Frank and his wife, Jess, have four children.

Quotes from This Episode

Ideas to Influence the Next Generation

Be a student of your boss.

Be attentive and listen to your boss. Ask him/her what they have going on and how you can help.

Remember ministry is about helping others.

Avoid the mindset that you’re in this to get what’s owed to you. Be a team player and broaden your perspective.

Be a better leader exactly where you are.

You don’t have to be in an authoritative role to lead. Do your job to the best of your ability while being passionate and positive about the work you do.

Conversation Starters For Your Church

What’s one project our ministry hasn’t pursued because we don’t believe we have the power to do so?

What can we do to better keep our church’s leaders informed about what’s going well, what’s not going well, and what we’d like to do differently?

What am I assuming my boss already knows about my job?

Your Hosts

Dave Adamson, The Think Orange Podcast Host


When he’s not working as a pastor at North Point Ministries in Atlanta, Dave is usually making his family cross their arms, roll their eyes, and tap their feet while he takes “just one more quick photo” on family outings. You’ll also often find him up to his neck in “Jewish stuff” as he researches the cultural context of Jesus for his daily Instagram devotions. Learn more about Dave at

Ashley Bohinc, The Think Orange Podcast Host


Ashley serves as the Director of Middle School Strategy at Orange and the USA Director of Carry 117. She has worked with students in public education, athletic and ministry settings for the last 12 years. She is most passionate about resourcing the local church, communicating on stage, developing leaders, working with students and world missions. In her downtime, you’ll find her watching Friends, cheering on the Cleveland Cavaliers, traveling, reading, or on one of her Fairytale Friday Adventures.

Join Us Next Week

Thank you for listening to the Think Orange Podcast.

We hope you’ll join us for next week’s episode. More importantly, we hope that when you think next generation, you think Orange.